tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post7555110451558139667..comments2023-07-19T04:26:33.427-07:00Comments on letlovebesincere: A Defense of marriage...Or not :)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-91467639540101932732013-06-26T19:07:19.898-07:002013-06-26T19:07:19.898-07:00I tend to agree with everything you said.
I cann...I tend to agree with everything you said. <br />I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why so many Catholics campaign against this particular issue...knowing full well that secular society's definition of marriage has very little to do with the Church's. <br />However, as I watch over-stretches of government (not necessarily in this case), I get very concerned about what it will be like for me, (as a Catholic woman who LOVES Church teaching on sexuality) in terms of tolerance of both our government and my peers. I worry about raising my kids to uphold the values and morals of the faith that we claim (as well as the love we will teach them is the FIRST thing they must worry about)and the prejudice they will face as a consequence. Honestly, the best idea I have read/heard is the Church exiting itself right out of the civil marriage idea all together (i.e. much like the Amish, not requiring or requesting any governmental affirmation of union)...I'd be willing to lose federal privileges to preserve our Churches def. of marriage. Although it is hard for you to fathom why a gay couple would want to get married in the Catholic church (or other Churchs hostile to their union), as you know, there are plenty of couples that campaign on the regular to see just that happen. Plenty of Catholics that are anticipating a day when our antiquated Church will change Her views. Of course, a simple examination of moral theology would show anyone that cannot and will not happen...but I don't think it is unreasonable to be concerned that a 'next step' in this country would be 'forcing' Churches to marry couples or face consequences (i.e. HHS Mandate). But, alas, my husband thinks that's a bit 'conspiracy theory' of me :)<br />Anyway, I think you said it best with your last line...'give to Caesar what is Caesar's' I would just add, 'and cross your fingers that Caesar doesn't insist you give to Ceasar what is God's'. Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-77508959104679861862013-06-26T18:15:37.757-07:002013-06-26T18:15:37.757-07:00It has seemed to me for a long while that the thin...It has seemed to me for a long while that the thing that is most divisive in the debate over same-sex marriage is the terminology used. There is absolutely no excuse for not affording same-sex couples the same rights and benefits accorded to heterosexual couples. That is civil marriage. There is a distinction between civil marriage (as opposed to civil unions) and "religious" or "holy" marriage, that is, holy Matrimony. I am a gay man and also a Catholic. I definitely applaud today's strikedown of DOMA, but I would not support forcing a church or any other non-profit to perform a same-sex marriage (of course I would wholeheartedly support any church that did perform same-sex marriages). I really can't imagine why a same-sex couple would want to marry in a hostile church environment anyway. Separation of church and state goes both ways. As you said in one of your comments above, the government doesn't worship with you on Sundays. By the same token, America is not a theocracy and the Bible is not our constitution, and it is wrong and unAmerican to force all American citizens to submit to one religion's ideal of what is right. Church and state must exist separately. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's.<br /><br />- Chris Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-77048134434756493752013-04-02T18:39:48.025-07:002013-04-02T18:39:48.025-07:00Actually, although I see why the two ( same sex ma...Actually, although I see why the two ( same sex marriages and interracial marriages) are widely compared by a lot of people in the secular world, the two are completely different issues, baring almost no similarities. I can expand on that if you'd like?Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-52475058133365101862013-04-02T16:15:00.456-07:002013-04-02T16:15:00.456-07:00I just think that, you know, in some places, your ...I just think that, you know, in some places, your own marriage would have been illegal not too long ago. I can't imagine that you have failed to see the irony in this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-69294237218584499012013-04-02T15:47:19.959-07:002013-04-02T15:47:19.959-07:00Very nicely stated!!!Very nicely stated!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-2747638797079283802013-04-02T07:59:47.455-07:002013-04-02T07:59:47.455-07:00Well, I am not a lawyer, so I don't 'see&#...Well, I am not a lawyer, so I don't 'see' things that way, you know? I get why you would have a different perspective.<br />What I think I know well (or ish) is ministry. And, I guess my greater point, is that we are doing a really crappy job evangelizing and spreading the message of Christ, which for us is what it HAS to boil down to. I think the campaigning for the defense of marriage act has done way more harm than good in this country in terms of showing the beauty and FREEDOM that comes from the sexual teachings of our Church. In fact, I think by trying so hard to protect children and give them their right of a mother and father (and remember, we are not perceived as campaigning that a child deserves a good/loving mother and father...as long as they are male/female, the perception is we just don't care about the rest), we have probably helped pushed the 'marriage equality' concept further in this country. <br />It's tough stuff. Really really tough stuff. <br /><br />But, I think we can all agree, as Catholics, we are falling short of introducing people to the LOVE of Christ which leads and works with the TRUTH of faith. See, the Love of Christ, when presented correctly is attractive, people want it. People who are exclusively attracted to the same sex and being told that attraction acted out shouldn't happen, MAN, that is tough stuff. I can't imagine struggling/toiling with that reality. I think the only thing that can bring clarity and hope to the reality of exclusive same sex attraction (from a Catholic perspective) is an intense relationship with a God who died on a cross. For real. <br /><br />Tough tough stuff.Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-33318668113974070652013-04-01T18:51:27.802-07:002013-04-01T18:51:27.802-07:00Wow, I cannot believe I missed this whole debate o...Wow, I cannot believe I missed this whole debate on your blog, Mary! I have homosexual family members and friends and I agree that we must show the love of Christ to all of His children, regardless of their sexual orientation. However, as a lawyer, I cannot say that I agree entirely with all that has been said. We do legislate morality in a number of different ways in the United States...we outlaw murder, rape, incest, and even designate by state what line of blood people may marry (i.e. whether you can marry first cousins, second cousins, etc.) We legislate taxes in order to provide services to those less fortunate in the best interests of society in general. We outlawed child labor as an "inherently evil" practice. I am not saying that the United States Congress and presidency always pass laws that I agree with, but we cannot stop fighting against those laws that we find morally wrong. A child has a right to their biological mother and father. Although that isn’t always possible and people can rise above situations where this ideal is not met, the ideal is worth defending and promoting. By defending marriage to be between a man and a woman, you are defending a child’s right to their biological mother and father. And what I intended to be a very short comment turned into a crazy long one. But thank you for sharing your thoughts, Mary!Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15918477986002999816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-28002077096413166742013-03-31T14:20:48.587-07:002013-03-31T14:20:48.587-07:00In what context? In what context? Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-27218184662965815182013-03-31T12:36:51.416-07:002013-03-31T12:36:51.416-07:00So, what would you have members of the LGBTQ commu...So, what would you have members of the LGBTQ community do exactly?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-43596525463372385272013-03-27T20:36:35.230-07:002013-03-27T20:36:35.230-07:00We well thank you thank you thank you. And, though...We well thank you thank you thank you. And, though i don't know who you are, if you would ever like to talk, I'm game!Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-81014058658858573532013-03-27T20:09:45.831-07:002013-03-27T20:09:45.831-07:00Mary, I will always repect you for being yourself....Mary, I will always repect you for being yourself. That's something that I've found to be very rare in people, so I applaud you for that. There are some points in here that make sense to me & some that kinda make me go 'Huh?' I've yet to find someone who I can talk to about this issue, ask my questions, etc. I am Catholic and I still struggle with it daily and I'm honestly not sure what to think. But I know what is right & I know what I believe. Pray for me that I eventually find someone I feel I can talk to about this! And have a beautiful day :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-2630527662393665112013-03-27T16:14:51.638-07:002013-03-27T16:14:51.638-07:00beautifully written. thank you for writing what i ...beautifully written. thank you for writing what i could never really put into words. peace. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-19862557587052071702013-03-27T14:09:57.200-07:002013-03-27T14:09:57.200-07:00I was thinking more of the multiple injustices fly...I was thinking more of the multiple injustices flying from people to people in all directions. You know, how everyone shouts "Crucify him (them)!" to the innocent.Mark Kemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310633596764141731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-57302713276070266402013-03-27T13:56:48.521-07:002013-03-27T13:56:48.521-07:00Mark, that was not lost on me either. Wonder if G...Mark, that was not lost on me either. Wonder if God is calling us all to a deeper prayer regarding this. Also, Pope Francis' reflection on Holy Week lent itself to the conversation as well, the ol' husband pointed that one out!Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-87879325767869940062013-03-27T13:42:32.055-07:002013-03-27T13:42:32.055-07:00I have plenty of things to say, but one thing is t...I have plenty of things to say, but one thing is that I am making so many Holy Week connections in this drama. For me, it seems not so accidental that this is taking place during Holy Week. I guess it's just because I'm so darn Catholic and can't help but notice certain things. Have a holy Holy Week!Mark Kemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310633596764141731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-52550287642681851822013-03-27T12:17:02.704-07:002013-03-27T12:17:02.704-07:00You never really resolve that in your post. You sa...You never really resolve that in your post. You say you worry about it, but it's already happening. Then you go on to say that the government definition of marriage has little to do with your definition of marriage, but Mary, it does affect your ability to be genuinely Catholic under the law. Because what comes with the government definition of marriage is the mandate that all institutions recognize those marriages as valid. So what devices to we have at our disposal to object? We have social media, we have the political sphere and we have our communities. If we are silent in any one of these areas there is a real danger that our silence is interpreted as consent. <br /><br />The true problem with the social media objections is that they are not well thought out statements, but shots in the dark that harm many and educate none.Barbara Frymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14314675308924356976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-78709143960563841332013-03-27T10:53:00.156-07:002013-03-27T10:53:00.156-07:00Lol :) I was referring to the primary purpose of m...Lol :) I was referring to the primary purpose of marriage, as defined by the Catholic Church :) Not, the primary purpose of the Church. Or, the primary purpose of life/salvation! ha ha ha. I enjoy your enthusiasm however :)Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-87113392451021791752013-03-27T10:49:58.771-07:002013-03-27T10:49:58.771-07:00Well, actually marriage in the Catholic Church is ...Well, actually marriage in the Catholic Church is seen as primarily to die to self and to assist each other to get to heaven. Not procreation. Please re-check your Cathechism! Most everything else - totally agree with you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-56145707618120054672013-03-27T09:50:30.876-07:002013-03-27T09:50:30.876-07:00First i love this blog entry! Thank you. Second, i...First i love this blog entry! Thank you. Second, i love this comment. It is so right on. I am a Christian, but the government doesn't come worship with me on Sundays. They are separate. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-27238521055505961952013-03-27T09:39:20.042-07:002013-03-27T09:39:20.042-07:00yup.yup.Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-81815609891894010852013-03-27T09:38:33.401-07:002013-03-27T09:38:33.401-07:00considered and reflected upon in my second point.considered and reflected upon in my second point.Mary Wilkersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08895931413075965922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-80526333040651945752013-03-27T09:17:00.932-07:002013-03-27T09:17:00.932-07:00Mary, consider this: There have already been insta...Mary, consider this: There have already been instances where the Church has been punished for Her teaching. In Chicago Catholic Social Services can no longer place children for adoption. In California Catholic therapists cannot suggest to a child that he/she may not be gay after all, or should not act on their homosexual feelings. In Massachusetts a man was arrested for trying to keep his child home during the classroom discussion about how homosexual households are just like everyone else's. I've heard the term "heterosexual" marriage on the T.V. I'm afraid tolerance is not enough, we are being required to approve or facing the consequences. Darkness and Light cannot coexist, neither in the Church, nor in the government. Barbara Frymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14314675308924356976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-9159729455593656282013-03-27T09:08:21.267-07:002013-03-27T09:08:21.267-07:00the debate is corrupted in the same fashion so man...the debate is corrupted in the same fashion so many are. i see a great power thrust behind this from washington. once agin a power that negates the intent of federation. side stepping the states power to govern is why we declared independence from England. it is why we went to war. it is what makes this cooperative union great that is threatened. i believe there is a fundamental lack of constitutional knowledge and somehow that will be our undoing as a nation of free people.Dulynotedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10263350120337172444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-48667351220307067122013-03-27T08:46:40.008-07:002013-03-27T08:46:40.008-07:00Perhaps that is because you, Mary Wilkerson, are b...Perhaps that is because you, Mary Wilkerson, are being called to act through your individual contacts. I would never say that all of us have to respond to this problem on the same front. That is absolutely myopic, and as you say, would never change hearts. But I wouldn't discount the importance of political front as a place where morality ought to be taught. Morality, natural moral law that is, has a place in all times, in all circumstances, in all cultures. The Catholic church teaches marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. Okay, but why? Well, it's down to our creature level that this teaching goes. This is not about the True Presence in the Eucharist, this is about humanity. I am pretty sure that Hammurabi is the one who first made marriage a legal issue. He was not connected to Catholicism. Catholic Moral Teaching is human moral teaching with the added bonus of sacraments for our own fortitude to continue being moral people. Barbara Frymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14314675308924356976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7902332526058821592.post-79896810370902305902013-03-27T08:45:26.307-07:002013-03-27T08:45:26.307-07:00That is why this debate over marriage equality isn...That is why this debate over marriage equality isn't the solution to the problem. My mom, who is as I like to say Uber Catholic, and I were talking about this yesterday. The solution to the problem is to overhaul how our government works in respect to same sex couples having the same tax breaks, parental rights, etc as heterosexual couples. It also needs to be done for heterosexual same sex people who reside together (ie. 2 women living in one house or 2 men living in one house who are not related and aren't homosexual). <br /><br />I think that same sex couples should be able to marry, have a civil union, or whatever they want to call it; but I don't think the church should have to take part in it at all. But, the problem and solution doesn't end at the Supreme Court allowing for same sex marriage.Margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15721722803156702642noreply@blogger.com